[EnigmA]

I would like to point out the state is not a force for good and you should stop thinking so if you do.

[uncle trotsky]

please elaborate crusher.

[Frankie]

As opposed to the federal government? Please tell me this is just a decision based on the lesser of two evils...

[Icestorm]

The state's function is the enforcement of contracts (between the state and between other people). That technical definition may not sound inherently evil, but it would be well to try and imagine how the foundation of states comes about. I would hold to the notion that rather than an equal compromise between all interested parties (and in small tribal groups this may be true, but irrelevant), every state is an attempt by the strong to legitimize their domination of the weak.

Take for example, the prevalence of Indo-European languages across Europe and Southern Asia that came about during the Bronze Age. Genetically, there hasn't been much movement in populations (North and South America excepted) since the end of the last ice age. The plausible explanation is that Indo-European languages are the legacy of the conquests of nomadic marauders that established themselves as elites in the societies they subdued (obviously there would be some exceptions to this). This would, however, be consistent with the historical behavior of steppe peoples, and a good indication about the nature of states.

Anyways, back to the point at hand. State institutions are great magnets for people with sociopathic tendencies. There's actually an institution in modern societies that almost systematically encourages people to develop these tendencies in such a way that they can also still be controlled, it's called public education. A dreadful experience for most us, but an equally enjoyable experience for a small (I'm being generous, I hope) amount of others. It is necessary for them to learn to enjoy the experience, for they would otherwise sacrifice the quality of experience for personal empowerment. The talented ones will learn subterfuge in college and go on to become lawyers, accountants, executives and hold public offices (the untalented ones become police officers, clerks and middle management). If these professions don't seem like havens for wicked people to you, perhaps you are fortunate enough to have little experience with them.

The consequence of all these factors is that the primary function of the state is really just the maintenance of the status quo. If you have grievances it is because you are not satisfied with the status quo. It is the self-interest of the state and major power brokers that hold influence not to take actions that will weaken their position. You may still get what you want, but they will see to it that others pay the cost of it. Ultimately, yes, the state is stronger than the men and corporations who often buy their loyalty. However, in order to employ that strength you must have an equal or greater source of power than these entities. The only way to amass such strength is to be just like them. So you have to accept that the state can't really do anything for you.

You can, at best, hope that popular movements will force a serious concession to your liking. The nature of people (dishonesty and deception) makes the restructuring of society (if you could achieve) tantamount to just a repeat of the entire process (broadly speaking, history shows this: power is consolidated only to be shattered, only to be reconsolidated, etc). It's not even realistic to believe one can withdraw from society at large anymore.

This post has been edited by Icestorm: 17 November 2009 - 06:41 AM

[EnigmA]

I was generally thinkign outside of basic law and order (that is, no killing, theft, enforceability of contract).

There is an idea that has been around for a century or more that the government is a force of social productivity, morality, and resource management. This is not the original intent of the governemnt (aleast American style).

There seems to be a consensus that the government can be a force of social good (welfare, selective taxation, spending OTHERS money) in a way that is productive and good to general society (ahem, the state).

Fascism is the idea the state is superior to the individual.

This post has been edited by EnigmA: 17 November 2009 - 08:50 PM

[Music Man]

To say that the state is not a force for good is correct in my view, although there is a fine line of distinction. That is, the state DOES enforce laws. So it is not a force for good, but it IS a force for bringing justice to lawbreakers.

[Icestorm]

The early American government was setup to heavily protect the interests of property owners, for those who wanted better living conditions, what options were available?

In the U.S., liberals already held considerable power at the signing of the Constitution, they were the policy-makers as well as the industrialists, merchants, landholders etc. There was a perception among poorer people in the U.S. that they were coerced into waged-labor and the wealthier people did not really deserve "their money."

A classic resentment, I suppose it is as old as civilization itself. Another revolution may have fixed this inequity, but I believe power tends to consolidate until a similar situation arises. So the question is, if they do not wish to use legislation to improve their standing, what else cab be done?

[buttfreek]

Icestorm, on 17 November 2009 - 06:39 AM, said:

The state's function is the enforcement of contracts (between the state and between other people). That technical definition may not sound inherently evil, but it would be well to try and imagine how the foundation of states comes about. I would hold to the notion that rather than an equal compromise between all interested parties (and in small tribal groups this may be true, but irrelevant), every state is an attempt by the strong to legitimize their domination of the weak.

Take for example, the prevalence of Indo-European languages across Europe and Southern Asia that came about during the Bronze Age. Genetically, there hasn't been much movement in populations (North and South America excepted) since the end of the last ice age. The plausible explanation is that Indo-European languages are the legacy of the conquests of nomadic marauders that established themselves as elites in the societies they subdued (obviously there would be some exceptions to this). This would, however, be consistent with the historical behavior of steppe peoples, and a good indication about the nature of states.

Anyways, back to the point at hand. State institutions are great magnets for people with sociopathic tendencies. There's actually an institution in modern societies that almost systematically encourages people to develop these tendencies in such a way that they can also still be controlled, it's called public education. A dreadful experience for most us, but an equally enjoyable experience for a small (I'm being generous, I hope) amount of others. It is necessary for them to learn to enjoy the experience, for they would otherwise sacrifice the quality of experience for personal empowerment. The talented ones will learn subterfuge in college and go on to become lawyers, accountants, executives and hold public offices (the untalented ones become police officers, clerks and middle management). If these professions don't seem like havens for wicked people to you, perhaps you are fortunate enough to have little experience with them.

The consequence of all these factors is that the primary function of the state is really just the maintenance of the status quo. If you have grievances it is because you are not satisfied with the status quo. It is the self-interest of the state and major power brokers that hold influence not to take actions that will weaken their position. You may still get what you want, but they will see to it that others pay the cost of it. Ultimately, yes, the state is stronger than the men and corporations who often buy their loyalty. However, in order to employ that strength you must have an equal or greater source of power than these entities. The only way to amass such strength is to be just like them. So you have to accept that the state can't really do anything for you.

You can, at best, hope that popular movements will force a serious concession to your liking. The nature of people (dishonesty and deception) makes the restructuring of society (if you could achieve) tantamount to just a repeat of the entire process (broadly speaking, history shows this: power is consolidated only to be shattered, only to be reconsolidated, etc). It's not even realistic to believe one can withdraw from society at large anymore.

This. So much this.

And the worst thing about it is that anyone who questions the state is automatically an "enemy" of the state.

The average citizen leads an entire life avoiding their true responsibility, to discern the truth for themselves, instead latching on to strong authority figures whom to trust.

This is the herd mentality, and it's deadly. Stupidly deadly.

Children are manipulated into this power scheme from an early age. Have you ever wondered why public education exists? Because without it, people might actually consider teachers to, you know, be expected to teach the students. Along with public education comes the whole stigma of power and control. Break the rules, and get in trouble. It doesn't take long to learn not to break the rules, and if that's all you learn, then the system works.

Once you have successfully brainwashed one generation, you have the trust of the general population. The power one wields with this ability is unholy, and the sick things wrought out in its name are repulsive. People are getting screwed left and right by government, but they just deny it, or have been beaten into submission via a lifetime of subjection to authority which no free man should be warranted to undergo.

Some of you fucking morons get taxed, when one adds up the federal income tax, state income taxes, sales taxes, inflation (the real inflation rate, about 10%), and social security, are forking over FIFTY PERCENT OR MORE OF YOUR HARD EARNED DOLLARS TO BIG DADDY GOVERNMENT. One wonders, how much were we taxed under British "tyrannical" rule which we rebelled from? I can assure the number was much, MUCH lower!

If you want to start understanding how wretched our government is, you might want to start thinking about what it really means...











To be free.

[buttfreek]

The fact that revolution has not yet come is almost sufficient proof of conspiracy, which can be easily confirmed when one researches the history of water fluoridation. Fluoride dumbs people down. The populace has been transformed to passive sheep. The more I think about this situation the more evil the world looks. People in power are intentionally and purposefully manipulating and deceiving the fuck out of society to their advantage. I think we are close to reaching a critical point where chance for successful rebellion will fall drastically. If that point is reached, we are all surely slaves, my friends. The concentration of power is inherently evil, but when concealed it is sure to bring a fate worse than death.

This post has been edited by buttfreek: 19 December 2009 - 04:39 PM

[buttfreek]

Icestorm, your writing has grown even more fantastic. you have a very oganized mind.

This post has been edited by buttfreek: 19 December 2009 - 04:39 PM

[buttfreek]

also, please write me by email. i have a website to recommend to you and its probably a better way of staying in touch than this forum.

[Lawless]

ButtFreek post the link to this other forum you go to I'd like to see it and check it out.

[yan9085]

How influentital the Media on Teens Are
It has been a hot topic discussed heatedly for the time being that how indeed the media influence our teens. Different peopie come up with different opinions. The following passages are two different comments given by several teenagers ranging from 15 to 20.
World of Warcraft power leveling,
One, World of Warcraft power leveling Teens are the most influenced and the easiest to be influenced by
last chaos gold,the media.last chaos gold The media influence the way they dress, talk and conduct themselves. From the latest trends to the coolest celebrities, they imirate what they see, whether it's Katie Holmes's new haircut or the pink shirt that Christina Aguilera wore. So it follows that more serious actions like carrying arms or doing drugs could be copied as well.
aoc power leveling,
Young people are impressionable.aoc power leveling Therefore, some request that the media should take responsibility by changing some of the content of their shows especially those for teens. They are huge consumers of media, so networks should show them respect by promoting positive images. They think some shows confuse the lines between entertainment and life.The producers know their audiences are young, so they should realize that teens watching "reality" shows might not be able
aoc power leveling,
to tell the difference between fantasy and fiction.aoc power leveling
Opposing voices have also come from others. They think that they use the media--magazines, television and movies--to connect to one another and to the world, so naturally,they're influenced by the images the media present. For example, a boy would be lying if he said he didn't want to be like Brad Pitt. Pitt's flawless style, good looks and moneymaking talent seem to define what's "cool".
Final Fantasy XI GIL,
Nevertheless,Final Fantasy XI GIL those teens hold that the media only provide information, what they as viewers do with that knowledge is up to themselves. They have to learn to make their own choices and accept responsibility for their actions. To blame entertainment figures for certain crimes committed by teens is
funny.
aion kinah,
It's not the fault of TV.aion kinah Media are an expression of our culture--not the cause. It's time we stop making the media a scapegoat for our nation's problems. It's not the media's job to make sure kids understand what they're watching; that responsibility belongs to parents. Parents and schools should dedicate more time to establishing clear rules of discipline.The influence of parents and teachers--the teens' true role model--carries more weight with teenagers than what they hear on the radio or see at the movies.